Jun 11, 2021
Attempting to copy and paste over, as I'd like to continue the discussion here. Hi folks. I'm looking at replacement heating systems for the farmhouse we're moving into in a few months. I have a quote for a 30kW ETA log gasification boiler. It's not cheap (best part of £25k) but I'm told by the installer that it is good quality and will burn significantly less wood than others. Does anyone have views on ETA? Good, bad or ugly? And is 30kW about right for a 4 bed poorly insulated farmhouse? (We'll slowly improve insulation) Thanks all Charlie 22.214.171.124kdmnx Hero Member Offline Posts: 709 Re: ETA log boilers « Reply #1 on: May 20, 2021, 04:10:18 PM » A very well-insulated 4-bed house can be heated with 3-4kW of heat. A typical 4-bed needs 10-12kW. So 30kW seems like a lot but not outside the realms of possibility! - Is the house in Scotland? - How poorly insulated are you talking? - How will you prevent pipes freezing if you have to be away in the middle of winter? - A 30kW boilerstove will get through 25kg of wood every 4hrs of operation. Are you up for buying, storing, shifting, and feeding that much? Every day. Even when you're sick/injured? Logged 12x JA Solar 340Wp panels (total 4080Wp) Lux Power inverter charger 5x PylonTech 2000 2.4kWh batteries (total 12kWh (11kWh usable)) charlieb Hero Member Online Posts: 1097 Re: ETA log boilers « Reply #2 on: May 20, 2021, 04:25:07 PM » Cheers Kdmnx. Sizing is more or less right by the sounds of things. The ETA brochure suggest 20-30kw for single family homes and 20-60kW for 'farmhouses'. Briefly: - Yes - Stone walls, single glazed and probably drafty, at least at first. - I'm not too too worried about this. (Someone will always be around to come in and light stove if need be.) - we sell logs on the farm, so cost is time not money. Storing and shifting not a problem. Feeding is the main thing I'm thinking about right now. Along with the upfront cost. The ETA brochure suggests 1 fill per day through most of the year. Occasionally 2 per day. If I'm around that won't be a problem. The worry will be if wife and young child are home alone for weeks at a time, but I don't think that'll be likely. 126.96.36.199Bugtownboy Full Member Offline Posts: 100 Re: ETA log boilers « Reply #3 on: May 20, 2021, 04:37:04 PM » Charlie, know it’s more complexity and cost, but is the twin system (combined pellet and log) a useful contingency ? I understand as long as the burner is filled with logs it won’t use pellets. Theoretically, you could have pellets on standby for when needed - whether this works in practice. As kdmnx alludes to, a bout of flu or a bad back could have implications for loading, particularly if it is 25 kilo a go. « Last Edit: May 20, 2021, 04:46:26 PM by Bugtownboy » LoggedTimR Newbie Offline Posts: 11 Re: ETA log boilers « Reply #4 on: May 20, 2021, 07:11:30 PM » I have a 20kw ETA boiler. It is good, I've had one minor electronic fault in 8 years but I would definitely recommend one. What size of store are you coupling with it? That is at least as important as the size of the boiler. I guess your 30kw boiler should be linked to a 3000l store. I have a modern (2013) house, around 130m2 High up in the North of Scotland. My boiler is linked to a 2000l thermal store. In winter I expect to light the boiler 2-3 times a week. In summer once a week or less. In total I use about 9 or 10m3 stacked logs a year. Loggedkdmnx Hero Member Offline Posts: 709 Re: ETA log boilers « Reply #5 on: May 21, 2021, 06:50:40 AM » Quote from: charlieb on May 20, 2021, 04:25:07 PM Cheers Kdmnx. Sizing is more or less right by the sounds of things. The ETA brochure suggest 20-30kw for single family homes and 20-60kW for 'farmhouses'. Given the location and your description of the house, the sizing sounds about right. It could be undersized for extreme weather so consider a normal wood burner or something else for aux heating. Quote from: charlieb on May 20, 2021, 04:25:07 PM - I'm not too too worried about this. (Someone will always be around to come in and light stove if need be.) Will they though? Think about extreme scenarios, think about once-in-ten-years scenarios. Quote from: charlieb on May 20, 2021, 04:25:07 PM - we sell logs on the farm, so cost is time not money. Storing and shifting not a problem. Feeding is the main thing I'm thinking about right now. Along with the upfront cost. The ETA brochure suggests 1 fill per day through most of the year. Occasionally 2 per day. If I'm around that won't be a problem. The worry will be if wife and young child are home alone for weeks at a time, but I don't think that'll be likely. I think the ETA brochure is assuming you have a reasonably well-insulated house and are using the wood-burner to charge up a mahooosive (eg 3000L) thermal store. However you’ll be running yours 24/7 for 6 months of the year, at least to start with. For me the best solution is to fit a gas boiler with bottle-gas in addition to the log-burner. It’d only cost £2-3k to buy/install everything but would solve all your problems by being fully automated. Your priorities should be: 1) Replace the windows/doors, sort the loft insulation, and fix draughts. 2) Fit IWI. 3) Dig up the floor and fit an insulated slab with UFH. It is MUCH easier to do all that before you move in. But I get that this isn’t always possible/practical. Logged 12x JA Solar 340Wp panels (total 4080Wp) Lux Power inverter charger 5x PylonTech 2000 2.4kWh batteries (total 12kWh (11kWh usable)) winterbourne Newbie Offline Posts: 13 Re: ETA log boilers « Reply #6 on: May 21, 2021, 08:46:24 AM » The ETA biomass range has a good reputation in the biomass industry and they have been very popular with their woodchip boilers primarily. If you are looking to qualify for the domestic renewable heat incentive it will need an MCS accredited product with an MCS accredited installer. Part of this process is a heat loss calculation of your property and as rule of thumb if you add 25% to this figure and choose the next available output size above this would work well for a log boiler (this is what Hetas would recommend). I have had a 40Kw log boiler for 10 years heating a 5 bedroom house and my heat loss calculation was 30000kWh for heating and hot water so 30000/1000 x 25% is 37.5Kw and I have a 40Kw log boiler with a 3000l Akvaterm tank. We as a company have 2000 log boilers installed in the UK with maybe 500 in Scotland and our products are MCS accredited for the DRHI. A 40Kw log boiler usually heats the following; A well-insulated house from 250m2 to 400m2. An averagely insulated house from 200m2 to 300m2. A poorly insulated house from 140m2 to 200m2. I would say our boilers are more the 'Ford' than the 'Mercedes' and would expect a 40Kw log boiler installation to be around £15k to £18k as an estimate. The DRHI is paid over 7 years. The most recent announcement can be found at https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/environmental-programmes/domestic-renewable-heat-incentive This would pay 7.01p per kWh for the deemed heat loss of your property unless you have a fossil fuel back up in which case it would be paid against the eligible heat generated measured by a heat meter. There is an annual heat demand limit of 25000kWh and for someone who had a heat demand that allowed them to use the full limit this would be £1752 per annum. The tariff will be paid tax free on a quarterly basis over a 7 year period and will be linked to the RPI. Anyway I hope you found some of this informative. Guy Winterbourne Eco Angus Ltd LoggedCountrypaul Hero Member Offline Posts: 1974 Re: ETA log boilers « Reply #7 on: May 21, 2021, 09:15:52 AM » Given the location I think you should give some thought to what happens during a cold spell in winter when you can't get out (and noone can get in) and the boiler breaks down - you should have a backup in place. The backup would need to serve 2 purposes, 1 provide heat to some living accomodation (you might be able to live in a subset of the rooms you normally during the emergency) but also provide enough neat to prevent damage to the plumbing system including boiler, themal store, radiators and pipework. As Kdmnx has suggested this could be a bottled gas boiler solution costing around 7p/kwh (+ efficiency losses) + small amount of hassle fetching/returning bottles + purchase cost + annual servicing and of course the extra costs of a mmsp contract for the log boier if having RHI. If you improve the insulation after you have the log boiler installed (with RHI) and you have a gas boiler fitted to then as Guy has mentioned you will be on measured heat demand. that means improving the house insulation will reduce the amount of heat you need and the amount claimed on RHI. If you have "free" logs then this becomes a disincentive to improve the house Not sure how RHI works with measured heat but the house EPC will give you an expected heat requirement and RHI will be based on that, if your house requires much less heat and you are on measured heat then you could end up getting paid much less than expected having forked out the extra for an MCS installed system. cotland might be different to England. If you use plug in electric heaters these don't affect your RHI but obviously cost much more to run say 14ppkwh and you would still need some way of protecting the wet CH system - immersion heaters? £2000-3000 pounds at 7p/kwh (excess over bottled gas) is 28000-42000 kwh. Improving your house insulation with this scenario does not affect your RHI payments but does reduce the amount of heat you need (and logs you need even if free) and should you rely on the backup heating the amount of electric you would need. How long would it take for the electric back to cost more than the bottled gas option? How likely are you to have a breakdown? How reliable is the electricity? How much bottled gas would you need in stock? What is the existing heating system, could that be kept as the backup?